Refund and Reparation

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 1
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG NANCY MANY
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: July 12, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 1, Page 2

[…]
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And did you ever work for the Office of Special
6 Affairs?
7 A Well, first it was RTC and then a special mission
8 by RTC and then that got transferred down, because RTC was
9 higher than OSA. Then it got bumped down to the Office of
10 Special Affairs International.
11 Q When did you start working for RTC?
12 A Probably early ‘83, 1983.
13 Q And what was your first position at RTC?
14 A Well, I wasn’t in RTC. I worked on a special
15 project for them. I was public. I was just, you know, out
16 in the world.
17 Q Oh, when did you — so when you quit the Sea
18 Org –
19 A I went out and got a job.
20 Q You went outside of Scientology?
21 A Yes, basically.
22 Q Okay. And then you became — but you maintained
23 a membership as a public?
24 A Exactly.
25 Q Okay. And is that what — is that the word
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1 that’s used to describe people who are not Sea Org or staff
2 but members of the Church of Scientology, “public”?
3 THE COURT: I don’t need to hear that. I’ve
4 heard that a bunch of times, unless she’s going to say
5 something different.
6 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Well, I just wanted
7 to — because Mr. Weinberg made an objection about
8 that a couple days ago.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
10 THE COURT: I don’t really need it.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Okay. So when you became a public member of the
13 Church of Scientology, explain how you were working for
14 RTC.
15 A Well, first — for the first six months or
16 whatever after I stopped being on staff, after a while they
17 did put me on the list of people that were declared. I was
18 thrown out and — which means I would be shunned. But then
19 that got corrected. And at the same time that that got
20 corrected, some friends sent me down to RTC, that the
21 person in charge of the mission there at that time wanted
22 to interview me.
23 And the first thing that he had me do was go to
24 David Mayo, who had been — one of the technical heads of
25 Scientology, had started a splinter group. And there was
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1 concerns about copyrights. And they wanted to see if I
2 could get connected in there, which I did.
3 Q As an undercover?
4 A Undercover.
5 Q And you were a public –
6 THE COURT: Could I –
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q — member?
9 THE COURT: Pardon me. When you indicated
10 you were a Sea Org member until 1982, I take it you
11 were a public member thereafter until some point in
12 time?
13 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
14 THE COURT: When would that have been?
15 THE WITNESS: The real final parting?
16 THE COURT: Right.
17 THE WITNESS: It’s really kind of cloudy,
18 but I’d say — ‘96, ‘97 — I mean, really in my head,
19 where I said, “You know what? I’m not a member
20 anymore,” probably not until ‘97.
21 THE COURT: So from 1982 until 1997, you
22 were a public member –
23 THE WITNESS: Basically.
24 THE COURT: — except for this period of
25 time when you were –
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly.
2 THE COURT: But even then, you perceived
3 yourself a member. Is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q So –
7 THE COURT: You say — I’m sorry,
8 Mr. Dandar.
9 Did you say ‘97 or ‘98?
10 THE WITNESS: 1996, 1997 — either/or, to be
11 honest.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: It was a real kind of fade.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q When you were a public member of the Church of
17 Scientology, you were also working as a volunteer for RTC?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Okay. And then in your capacity as working as a
20 volunteer for RTC, you worked for OSA?
21 A Well, after RTC. See, I was — you have
22 handlers; you have case officers. So initially my case
23 officer wasn’t RTC; it was a mission –
24 Q Okay.
25 A — a group of people assigned specifically. And
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1 they were my people. And then as that group was shifted –
2 which I do not know why; I wasn’t privy to that — then my
3 case handler became somebody more significant.
4 Q How long did you stay working, volunteering,
5 working as a volunteer, for RTC slash OSA slash OSA Int?
6 A Probably two and a half years.
7 Q And was there any difference between the work in
8 the Guardian’s Office when it was called the Guardian’s
9 Office and the work for OSA when you were volunteering to
10 work for OSA?
11 A As I knew at that time? The differences were
12 with OSA they used a lot more private investigators and
13 they ran things through the attorneys. You would get
14 like — there would be an operation or you would get
15 briefed to go do something. And they would say, “Oh, we
16 have to run this through the attorneys first.” There was a
17 lot more of that.
18 But otherwise in terms of the day-to-day, “Go
19 pretend you’re a friend and tell us what they’re doing” or
20 “Go here and tell us what they’re doing,” that was all the
21 same. The information and the intelligence-gathering was
22 the same.
23 Q So — so your activities of spying on people in
24 the Guardian’s Office was the same as your spying for OSA?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form. Could
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1 he just ask questions?
2 THE COURT: Sustained. She uses the term
3 “gathering information.” She’s not yet used the word
4 “spying,” so I don’t think you ought to use it here.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q When you went undercover, as you said, in David
8 Mayo’s organization, what was your assignment?
9 A To befriend, to be — to find out what was going
10 on. Sometimes there would be something specific for me to
11 do. Other times it was just to be there and find out what
12 they were doing and report back.
13 Q Okay. And what — did you tell this organization
14 run by Mr. Mayo that you were a — a worker — a
15 Scientologist?
16 A An agent for the Church? No, I did not.
17 Q What did you tell them about your affiliation
18 with the Church?
19 A Because I had been on that list in writing that I
20 was thrown out of the Church, that was my — you know, at
21 that time there was a very large schism within the Church.
22 THE COURT: What date was that? I mean,
23 what year was that?
24 THE WITNESS: 1983 I started.
25 THE COURT: No, I’m sorry. This list that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 you were on, this schism, where you’re talking about a
2 lot of folks were on the list, was this –
3 THE WITNESS: I don’t have a copy right to
4 hand, but it was back in ‘80 to ‘83 I was on the list.
5 It was a very long list.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: Very long list.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Did that list have anything to do with the power
10 struggle between David Miscavige and Pat Broeker?
11 A Yes, well — yes. Some of the people did — the
12 first time I saw some of the names that were to be removed
13 from their positions, most of them were very, very high,
14 and I thought that this was written by a non-church member,
15 that somebody had written — it was so bizarre at that
16 time. This was so amazing, that these senior executives
17 would be all removed together and said they were like bad
18 people, that I thought that was a made-up thing by some
19 anti-Scientologist.
20 Q When you were undercover in the David Mayo group,
21 did you submit to a deposition?
22 A No.
23 Q Were you deposed about your working in the David
24 Mayo group?
25 A An affidavit at the very end. That’s what –
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 that’s when I became a potential witness in a court case,
2 and they had me submit an affidavit.
3 Q Did there come a point in time when you gained
4 knowledge that there was a court order prohibiting
5 Scientology from having anybody working for David Mayo?
6 A Correct. They — during this time, when I was
7 still going in there, there was at one time a court order
8 that said all people — all agents of the Church, all
9 members of the Church, have to stay within a certain, you
10 know, feet order. You know what I mean?
11 Q An injunction?
12 A Yes, it was an injunction.
13 Q And to your knowledge, personal knowledge, was
14 that order honored?
15 A No, it was not.
16 Q How was it broken?
17 A Well, first I was asked to go up there. And I
18 said: Well, how can I go up this weekend? Isn’t there an
19 injunction?
20 And I honestly don’t remember. I know there was
21 hesitation and “I’ll get back to you and I’ve got to check
22 with the lawyers,” because everything was checked by the
23 lawyers. So whether I came up or not, I can’t honestly
24 say.
25 But I do know that they had at least two agents
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1 in there on a permanent basis that were agents of the
2 Church, reporting regularly to the Church, that had staff
3 jobs there. They were there all the time. And they were
4 left just doing their business as usual.
5 Q Did they report to the attorneys or to someone
6 else?
7 A No. They reported to the same person that I
8 reported to.
9 Q Was that an attorney?
10 A No, it was not.
11 Q What post did that person have?
12 A Well, initially he was in RTC. There was an RTC
13 mission there.
14 Q Was this before OSA was formed?
15 A No. This was after OSA. This was during that
16 transition period.
17 Q Okay.
18 THE COURT: Who did you report to? Are we
19 not going to find out?
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Who did you report to?
22 A His name?
23 Q Yes.
24 A Gary Klinger.
25 Q Klinger?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A M’hum (affirmative).
2 Q K-l-i-n?
3 A Yes.
4 THE COURT: And Mr. Klinger was where in the
5 organization?
6 THE WITNESS: He was on mission from RTC. I
7 do not know if he was an official RTC staff member,
8 because sometimes they pull people from other
9 organizations to do work for them. But that was his
10 position while he was my case officer.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you know who his senior was?
14 A I know now, yes. I didn’t at that time.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me, your Honor.
16 She knows now based on something somebody has told
17 you?
18 THE WITNESS: No. I read it on the
19 Internet.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I object to her
21 testifying as to who the senior was if she read it on
22 the Internet.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Q But his senior would have been somebody in RTC,
2 right?
3 A Correct.
4 THE COURT: What was the man’s name? I
5 got –
6 THE WITNESS: Klinger.
7 THE COURT: Klinger.
8 THE WITNESS: Gary Klinger.
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: We weren’t allowed, when we
11 were doing it — like I was spied upon. There were
12 people that I never knew who they were who would check
13 back on what I was doing.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q So what do you mean? You weren’t allowed to know
16 what?
17 A It’s on a need-to-know basis. That’s what they
18 call it, a need-to-know basis. So you would only know the
19 little, tiny part that you were involved in.
20 Q Okay. And then you had people that — from RTC
21 who were spying on you?
22 A I don’t know who they were. But I would come
23 back and people had watched me and observed me and they had
24 reported in on what I had done.
25 Q And how would you find that out?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A I would be told by my case officer.
2 Q Okay.
3 THE COURT: In other words, you were — you
4 were — they wanted you to know that folks were
5 watching what you were doing?
6 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
7 THE COURT: So they weren’t hiding that from
8 you; they were telling you.
9 THE WITNESS: That I was being watched, but
10 I never knew who that person — those people were.
11 THE COURT: But I guess what I’m saying is
12 you were being made aware that you were being
13 watched –
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE COURT: — so that you knew this when
16 you were making your report.
17 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Who else did you go undercover for in addition to
20 David Mayo?
21 A A lot, actually. I would just happen into things
22 sometimes. I went to go get a job at what I thought was a
23 normal computer company, and it ended up being someone
24 connected with the European squirrels at that time.
25 Squirrels are people that leave the Church but still
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 practice the Church.
2 But a gentleman named Captain Bill, Captain Bill
3 Robertson — he was a major force in the Sea Org. And
4 during the split with David Mayo and David Miscavige and
5 whatnot, he ended up in the Org.
6 And this little computer company that I thought
7 was a regular computer company ended up being like run by
8 him. You know, he was — his deputy ran the company.
9 Q Were you — were you undercover in that company?
10 A Well, then I reported in to my case officer, and
11 I said, “Oh, my god, I got this job,” you know.
12 And he said, “Well, go ahead and just report
13 whatever you have.”
14 And he would feed it back to — I think it was –
15 he would feed it back to the person who was — actually
16 handled the European operations.
17 Q And the people at the computer company, did they
18 know you were a Scientologist?
19 A Yes. They thought — I’m trying to get this
20 straight. They thought that I was — see, there were
21 regular Scientologists in the company. And this was at a
22 higher level of the organization. The executives were the
23 ones connected with the European squirrel group, right?
24 THE COURT: I’m getting real confused. The
25 word “squirrel,” I don’t know what that is.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 MR. WEINBERG: It’s people that have left
2 the Church that are trying to put on a — trying to
3 use Scientology as a — their own –
4 MR. DANDAR: (To Mr. Prince) Shh.
5 MR. WEINBERG: It’s an altered version of
6 Scientology, in other words. And so they are
7 squirrels and they are disaffected and they are — you
8 know, they are enemies of the Church of Scientology.
9 They’re people that have essentially –
10 THE WITNESS: Yep.
11 THE COURT: You agree with that?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
13 THE COURT: Okay. So this would be like
14 this David Mayo –
15 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
16 THE COURT: — was using the Church’s
17 literature, supposedly was sued for trademark
18 violations –
19 MR. WEINBERG: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: — or whatever? That would be
21 considered a squirrel group?
22 MR. WEINBERG: That’s a squirrel group.
23 They take the copyright and then try to open up their
24 own organization –
25 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 MR. WEINBERG: — with it, violating all
2 kinds of law.
3 THE COURT: Okay. When you say this was a
4 squirrel group –
5 THE WITNESS: It was like the European
6 version of David Mayo.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: They went a little different
9 in Europe.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Hubbard’s dictionary
12 defines it like that. And there’s many definitions,
13 actually, but one of them says: “Going off into weird
14 practices or altering Scientology. Only comes about
15 from non-comprehension.” And it goes on and on.
16 Anyway.
17 THE WITNESS: So I was involved in that. I
18 was involved in just about anything else that would
19 kind of come my way. And there would be little minor
20 things that would be given to me. You know: “Oh,
21 there’s going to be a meeting over here. Could you go
22 and tell us what happens?”
23 THE COURT: I’m sorry, I think I interrupted
24 your train of thought. You had been asked whether or
25 not they knew you were with the Church of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Scientology –
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
3 THE COURT: — and you started to talk about
4 that.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, because it was very
6 complicated, because I went and got their job — I was
7 hired by their general membership as I was a regular
8 Scientologist. And they did not know I was spying for
9 OSA and going to David Mayo’s. Right? But then I
10 found out that the leadership, the executives –
11 THE COURT: In the company?
12 THE WITNESS: — in this company –
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: — who were keeping it hidden
15 from the regular staff — right? — were in actual
16 fact connected with both David Mayo’s in America and
17 Captain Bill in New York.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay. All right.
20 A So because I was at David Mayo’s, okay, then I
21 can’t have a regular job here because they know. And then
22 I became a conduit for European information.
23 MR. WEINBERG: And the date of this is?
24 THE WITNESS: This would be ‘84, ‘83. It
25 would be — yes, ‘83, ‘84.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. Did there — did there come a — well, any
3 other operations that you participated in with OSA or RTC?
4 A Well, I remember — I mean, like there would be
5 like little things, like say, for example, this woman — I
6 don’t even remember her name — but she would be in
7 deposition with Scientology all day. And then I would get
8 a call like, “Hey, she’s going to be over at this friend of
9 a friend’s house after the deposition,” and I would go
10 there just to get their reaction from the deposition.
11 Q And would you go –
12 THE COURT: I don’t understand that.
13 THE WITNESS: A witness –
14 THE COURT: A witness for whom?
15 THE WITNESS: She would be against
16 Scientology.
17 THE COURT: In a case?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. She was a witness in a
19 case that Scientology was deposing.
20 THE COURT: Okay. She was a witness against
21 Scientology?
22 THE WITNESS: Against Scientology. And
23 after the day’s deposition, they wanted me there to
24 get her reaction, to get some feedback.
25 THE COURT: Did she know that you were doing
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 this?
2 THE WITNESS: For Scientology? Absolutely
3 not. Absolutely not.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Could we have a name?
5 THE WITNESS: I can’t remember her name.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q A date? Year?
8 A Well, it would be between that period, ‘83, ‘84.
9 Q Okay.
10 THE COURT: Can you tell me how — two
11 questions I would have, maybe. One is, How did you
12 just end up at somebody’s house? I mean, normally you
13 have to be invited.
14 THE WITNESS: Because it would be a friend
15 of a friend. They knew that I knew somebody who was
16 friends with her.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So you’d just try to be
18 at — end up at the same place where she was –
19 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: — and listen in?
21 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
22 THE COURT: See if she said anything, and if
23 so, report back.
24 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
25 THE COURT: Okay.